Thoughts on the worldhttp://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfen-usSun, 11 May 2008 03:37:00 PM -0400 Sun, 11 May 2008 03:37:00 PM -0400 John House fire
Ventilation is an important aspect of controlling a fire. It is not as easy as it might look to get it right. When it works as it should no one complains because the fire is typically limited and goes out quickly. If the coordination is off it can quickly go wrong.

What this is all coming down to is, don't rush to judge, try to learn what happened and put things into perspective. When things go wrong they can be tragic, much worse than loosing a home and possessions. If you do not understand what happened or why things seemed to go wrong, try talking to your firefighters to gain a better perspective on the situation. Firefighters care about their communities and are proud of their profession, they are also falable and can have bad days. Support them in their efforts to be better at their important jobs, it is not an easy one when seconds count.]]>
Ventilation is an important aspect of controlling a fire. It is not as easy as it might look to get it right. When it works as it should no one complains because the fire is typically limited and goes out quickly. If the coordination is off it can quickly go wrong.

What this is all coming down to is, don't rush to judge, try to learn what happened and put things into perspective. When things go wrong they can be tragic, much worse than loosing a home and possessions. If you do not understand what happened or why things seemed to go wrong, try talking to your firefighters to gain a better perspective on the situation. Firefighters care about their communities and are proud of their profession, they are also falable and can have bad days. Support them in their efforts to be better at their important jobs, it is not an easy one when seconds count.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#05112008033700PMBEEQZP.htm Wed, 30 Apr 2008 03:08:51 PM -0400 Chris Shadwell House fire http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#04302008030851PMBEEQG4.htm Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:38:24 AM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire
This shows that you also do not understand what venting is for. As a firefighter you should know.

Fires need three things, heat, air and fuel. If your goal is to put the fire out, you remove as many of the three items as possible. Venting does not remove the heat required to burn, it only reduces the heat build up enough to allow entry for firemen or to save trapped people. Perhaps there was too much text for you to read... there was nobody in the house and no hoseline, so in this case, venting only added air and accelerated the burning of the fuel.

I understand that firefighters try to do their job as best they can. Everyone does. This does not mean that they do things right or that there is never room for improvement and that criticism cannot be made.

Suggesting that I should feel bad for even suggesting that a poor job was done simply provides further evidence that you cannot discuss your own occupation with logic. I hope I never have to rely on you to save my life or property.]]>
This shows that you also do not understand what venting is for. As a firefighter you should know.

Fires need three things, heat, air and fuel. If your goal is to put the fire out, you remove as many of the three items as possible. Venting does not remove the heat required to burn, it only reduces the heat build up enough to allow entry for firemen or to save trapped people. Perhaps there was too much text for you to read... there was nobody in the house and no hoseline, so in this case, venting only added air and accelerated the burning of the fuel.

I understand that firefighters try to do their job as best they can. Everyone does. This does not mean that they do things right or that there is never room for improvement and that criticism cannot be made.

Suggesting that I should feel bad for even suggesting that a poor job was done simply provides further evidence that you cannot discuss your own occupation with logic. I hope I never have to rely on you to save my life or property.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#03222008113824AMDSCL43.htm Sat, 22 Mar 2008 11:31:54 AM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire
I am glad the pics were useful.. and interested to know in what sort of context they were useful...?

The comments on the medics were not critical at all, I just mentioned their presence and I certainly do not question them being there. Its obvious to have them at hand.

Keep up with the open attitude and training!]]>
I am glad the pics were useful.. and interested to know in what sort of context they were useful...?

The comments on the medics were not critical at all, I just mentioned their presence and I certainly do not question them being there. Its obvious to have them at hand.

Keep up with the open attitude and training!]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#03222008113154AMDSCKY2.htm Tue, 19 Feb 2008 10:07:37 AM -0400 House fire http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#02192008100737AMBEEKRB.htm Sun, 3 Feb 2008 11:52:43 PM -0400 books House fire
Dale, you mention German firefighting tactics; its called the 3D method. And yes, venting is done less.

Ill give you a quick lesson. It was developed in the 80s by Sweden. The 3D method use the principle of small water droplet that will absorb the heat and eventual steam is produced. This action cools the fire. Essentially, the fogs dose the same function as venting by removing heat.

PS the navy does the something

I Deeply apologies for my grammar

Last of all

I agree you do have a right to disagree but, I always ask the firefighters how fought the fire first before I comment. After all, Brannigan wrote, “ there is only one person that knows how to fight the bull all others watch.”]]>
Dale, you mention German firefighting tactics; its called the 3D method. And yes, venting is done less.

Ill give you a quick lesson. It was developed in the 80s by Sweden. The 3D method use the principle of small water droplet that will absorb the heat and eventual steam is produced. This action cools the fire. Essentially, the fogs dose the same function as venting by removing heat.

PS the navy does the something

I Deeply apologies for my grammar

Last of all

I agree you do have a right to disagree but, I always ask the firefighters how fought the fire first before I comment. After all, Brannigan wrote, “ there is only one person that knows how to fight the bull all others watch.”]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#02032008115243PMBEE7QZ.htm Thu, 13 Dec 2007 06:16:55 AM -0400 MikeE House fire
As a volunteer firefighter, i am vexed by this posting.

First, let me say that your pics are great and helped tell a story well. So well, in fact, that we used your article for training just this week.

My dissapointment is at others who call you a moron, and your saying that not all firefighters are heros. And to expect perfection out of everybody will only lead to dissappointment. How may structure fires have these men been involved in? I, myself have been involved in very few. We train weekly, and on my own time i run scenerios by tracking down pics and watching others. While i don't see myself as a hero, i do take great pride in providing a service to my community that no one else is willing or capable of providing. When you or your family have been injured in a wreck, or your whole world is burning down around you, please don't ask the firefighters that are putting their health and lives at risk what their credentials are, or whether they are the "heros" of the bunch. Until one has been in a situation like a structure fire, it is hard to understand the mass confusion and that there is no time to play "what if". We do the best we can, clean up, pick ourselves up, analyze what we did wrong, and get back on the horse because the next call is "just around the corner". We are far from perfect, yet it seems we are the only ones willing to make the initial sacrifice.

Again, thak you for shareing your pics. They have been a help to us, and i am sure, many others.

PS As for the comment on the medics on scene, many EOC's require medical personell on scene for the fact that what is happening is inherently dangerous, and many firefighters get injured and killed. Myself, i am glad the medics were just "standing around" when i over exerted myself and suffered heat exhaustion. Also glad they were there when my grandfather (also a volunteer) had a building collapse around him on an initial search for occupants.

Thanks for letting me contribute.]]>
As a volunteer firefighter, i am vexed by this posting.

First, let me say that your pics are great and helped tell a story well. So well, in fact, that we used your article for training just this week.

My dissapointment is at others who call you a moron, and your saying that not all firefighters are heros. And to expect perfection out of everybody will only lead to dissappointment. How may structure fires have these men been involved in? I, myself have been involved in very few. We train weekly, and on my own time i run scenerios by tracking down pics and watching others. While i don't see myself as a hero, i do take great pride in providing a service to my community that no one else is willing or capable of providing. When you or your family have been injured in a wreck, or your whole world is burning down around you, please don't ask the firefighters that are putting their health and lives at risk what their credentials are, or whether they are the "heros" of the bunch. Until one has been in a situation like a structure fire, it is hard to understand the mass confusion and that there is no time to play "what if". We do the best we can, clean up, pick ourselves up, analyze what we did wrong, and get back on the horse because the next call is "just around the corner". We are far from perfect, yet it seems we are the only ones willing to make the initial sacrifice.

Again, thak you for shareing your pics. They have been a help to us, and i am sure, many others.

PS As for the comment on the medics on scene, many EOC's require medical personell on scene for the fact that what is happening is inherently dangerous, and many firefighters get injured and killed. Myself, i am glad the medics were just "standing around" when i over exerted myself and suffered heat exhaustion. Also glad they were there when my grandfather (also a volunteer) had a building collapse around him on an initial search for occupants.

Thanks for letting me contribute.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#12132007061655AMBEEF95.htm Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:24:15 AM -0400 Jeff House fire http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#08232007112415AMBEEL3Q.htm Thu, 26 Jul 2007 09:36:18 PM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire
Thanks for the balanced view - its good to hear a firefighter that can understand that things are not always done right !

I wonder if my town does post-incident operational reports!

Dale]]>
Thanks for the balanced view - its good to hear a firefighter that can understand that things are not always done right !

I wonder if my town does post-incident operational reports!

Dale]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#07262007093618PMDSC3UK.htm Tue, 24 Jul 2007 02:50:54 AM -0400 House fire
Ever think there could possibly have been backdraft conditions inside the home?

That would account for the vertical ventilation.]]>
Ever think there could possibly have been backdraft conditions inside the home?

That would account for the vertical ventilation.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#07242007025054AMBEEA2V.htm Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:55:51 AM -0400 Mike House fire
Here's an example of a "solid" post-incident operational report that includes some critique points. Whether written or verbal, this should be done after every incident.

{ Link }]]>
Here's an example of a "solid" post-incident operational report that includes some critique points. Whether written or verbal, this should be done after every incident.

{ Link }]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#07192007085551AMBEEH6Y.htm Thu, 19 Jul 2007 08:24:09 AM -0400 Mike House fire
I am a Firefighter. I will not comment on the tactics utilized at this fire because I obviously was not present to witness this incident for myself; however, in my opinion, you have every right to question the actions/tactics that you observed. You have this right for one simple reason... you're a taxpayer. You're paying for fire protection and you have every right to expect quality. The Fire Department "leadership" has a duty to answer such inquiries objectively and professionally. They should possess the desire to have as many "informed" residents as possible within their community. This falls squarely into one of the Fire Department's other responsibilities - EDUCATION. They also have a responsibility to assess their tactics through post incident critiques and address any deficiencies that are identified. No incident ever goes perfectly, there is always SOMETHING to learn from each incident that can be applied to future incidents. Unfortunately, throughout my time in the fire service, I've seen too many examples of less-than-adequate fire protection and/or Fire Department arrogance. Some departments, career or volunteer, seem to believe that simply showing up at your emergency is "good enough". In their opinion, just showing up on the big, red trucks dismisses their shortcomings. They don't pay attention to response times, adequate staffing, poor tactics, lack of effective leadership, etc. I firmly believe that those individuals are members of the fire service for self-serving reasons. Plain and simple, they're in it to "get their rocks off". Unfortunately, their focus on public safety tends to become blurred. If you want to keep them focused, keep asking the "tough" questions and motivate others to ask questions. Request training records, show up at meetings and observe training. Become "informed". In closing, there are good Firefighters out there that ARE committed to quality fire protection and I'm sure they would support your stance. Good Luck.]]>
I am a Firefighter. I will not comment on the tactics utilized at this fire because I obviously was not present to witness this incident for myself; however, in my opinion, you have every right to question the actions/tactics that you observed. You have this right for one simple reason... you're a taxpayer. You're paying for fire protection and you have every right to expect quality. The Fire Department "leadership" has a duty to answer such inquiries objectively and professionally. They should possess the desire to have as many "informed" residents as possible within their community. This falls squarely into one of the Fire Department's other responsibilities - EDUCATION. They also have a responsibility to assess their tactics through post incident critiques and address any deficiencies that are identified. No incident ever goes perfectly, there is always SOMETHING to learn from each incident that can be applied to future incidents. Unfortunately, throughout my time in the fire service, I've seen too many examples of less-than-adequate fire protection and/or Fire Department arrogance. Some departments, career or volunteer, seem to believe that simply showing up at your emergency is "good enough". In their opinion, just showing up on the big, red trucks dismisses their shortcomings. They don't pay attention to response times, adequate staffing, poor tactics, lack of effective leadership, etc. I firmly believe that those individuals are members of the fire service for self-serving reasons. Plain and simple, they're in it to "get their rocks off". Unfortunately, their focus on public safety tends to become blurred. If you want to keep them focused, keep asking the "tough" questions and motivate others to ask questions. Request training records, show up at meetings and observe training. Become "informed". In closing, there are good Firefighters out there that ARE committed to quality fire protection and I'm sure they would support your stance. Good Luck.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#07192007082409AMBEEGK6.htm Sat, 30 Jun 2007 03:32:34 PM -0400 Mark House fire
I'm curiouis...In what towne/city did the house fire occur?

Thanks,

Mark]]>
I'm curiouis...In what towne/city did the house fire occur?

Thanks,

Mark]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06302007033234PMBEEQWW.htm Wed, 27 Jun 2007 10:24:12 AM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06272007102412AMDSCJVL.htm Wed, 27 Jun 2007 09:40:32 AM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire
You seem to be basing your argument that only a trained firefighter would be able to recognize firefighting errors. That logic would suggest that only women would be able to recognize a beautiful woman.

I am not a firefighter (though I have had fire fighting training) nor am I a woman. I can however recognize incompetence just as I can tell the difference between a beautiful woman and an ugly woman.

I never claimed to be an expert, but I am able to read and understand what the NYFD say about venting and when it should be done. I am also able to compare that information to what I saw and I am able to see the discrepancies. That is what I described. It upset me enormously and it should upset expert firefighters too.]]>
You seem to be basing your argument that only a trained firefighter would be able to recognize firefighting errors. That logic would suggest that only women would be able to recognize a beautiful woman.

I am not a firefighter (though I have had fire fighting training) nor am I a woman. I can however recognize incompetence just as I can tell the difference between a beautiful woman and an ugly woman.

I never claimed to be an expert, but I am able to read and understand what the NYFD say about venting and when it should be done. I am also able to compare that information to what I saw and I am able to see the discrepancies. That is what I described. It upset me enormously and it should upset expert firefighters too.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06272007094032AMDSCJ2B.htm Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:39:26 PM -0400 Damon House fire
Isn't it great how violently angry people get on the information superhighway? If they talked like that in any face to face situation they would be laughed out of the room, or at least scolded by their parents. Message boards depress me.

Those were great photos, and respectfully skeptical comments. Too bad the people chiming in don't understand respect, even when they want more respect for firemen.]]>
Isn't it great how violently angry people get on the information superhighway? If they talked like that in any face to face situation they would be laughed out of the room, or at least scolded by their parents. Message boards depress me.

Those were great photos, and respectfully skeptical comments. Too bad the people chiming in don't understand respect, even when they want more respect for firemen.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06222007123926PMBEEMJP.htm Fri, 22 Jun 2007 08:47:56 AM -0400 House fire http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06222007084756AMBEEGZZ.htm Tue, 19 Jun 2007 12:21:02 PM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire
I have also watched firefighters in action in Germany. Whole different story. Anyone watching the two scenes will be very able to see that the Germans knew what they were doing.]]>
I have also watched firefighters in action in Germany. Whole different story. Anyone watching the two scenes will be very able to see that the Germans knew what they were doing.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06192007122102PMDSCM6G.htm Sun, 17 Jun 2007 11:00:47 AM -0400 Nick House fire http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06172007110047AMBEEKM3.htm Wed, 13 Jun 2007 11:36:05 AM -0400 Dale Schultz House fire
There was no heroism there at all. Not all firefighters are heroes.

So by my pointing out that they did an awful job, you hope my house burns down, very logical. If my house catches fire, it probably will burn to the ground with that fire department watching. My tax dollars pay these guys, documenting how they did (not do) their job does not make me a jerk.]]>
There was no heroism there at all. Not all firefighters are heroes.

So by my pointing out that they did an awful job, you hope my house burns down, very logical. If my house catches fire, it probably will burn to the ground with that fire department watching. My tax dollars pay these guys, documenting how they did (not do) their job does not make me a jerk.]]> http://mixmox.servehttp.com/dms.nsfdx/house-fire-on-our-steeet?opendocument&comments#06132007113605AMDSCLA6.htm